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NonHyloMorph 16 minutes ago [-]
Might want to do yourself a favor and figure out the implied question behind 400(?)
It's... not a lot of work. At least for me personally it rubs me the wrong way to name an important metric in Fahrenheit and then to give an estimate with a question mark for the proper SI unit.
baron816 1 hours ago [-]
I really like what https://www.deepfission.com/ is trying to do. They have the absolute simplest model for nuclear fission that I can imagine. They’re digging one mile (1.6 km) holes dropping low enriched nuclear fuel to the bottom, and filling them with water. The pressure from the one mile column of water is perfect for the reactor. From there, it’s basically a geothermal well.
No need for an expensive containment dome, or expensive plumbing. If anything goes wrong, the nuclear fuel is already a mile underground. When the fuel is used up, they can leave it where it is since it’s below the water table. No need for expensive and hard to source highly enriched uranium.
The hard part is digging the wells, but that seems trivial compared to Quaise, who’s trying to dig 3-20km wells. The Deep Fission wells can just go anywhere (perhaps next to a disused former coal turbine?).
rgmerk 37 minutes ago [-]
That sounds like an absolute nightmare to get approvals for.
noja 22 minutes ago [-]
What are the side-effects of regularly detonating nuclear bombs at that depth?
cyberax 11 minutes ago [-]
It's an extremely stupid idea. Your whole water column is going to be contaminated with fission products. And you won't be able to get any reasonable amount of power out of that contraption.
And even if you are stupid enough to actually do this, the fuel efficiency will be terrible. Your only negative feedback for fission is the Doppler effect and thermal expansion. So you will only be able to utilize a tiny percentage of the fissionable materials.
notrustincloud 14 minutes ago [-]
below and penetrating the water table with the potential for short and long half-life transuranic fissile products and a path of least resistance for any runaway conditions which is directly to an uncontained well head... with the extra bonus of installation proposed in 'spent' hydrocarbon bearing regions which implies reduced density substrates with all the tiny seismic outcomes and risks.
perfectly safe /s
cyberax 10 minutes ago [-]
We can then build a primary school on top! And use the water from the well for heating directly.
"For the application in EGS drilling, this device uses a metallic waveguide to carry the
millimeter wave (MMW) beam to a standoff distance from the crystalline rock. Argon gas is
used as the waveguide fill medium due to its ability to stay transparent to MMW’s at such
deep depths and thus higher pressures [12]. Purge gas is also used to pump out the excess
material that has been transformed into smaller particles (Figure 2.4). "
As a former geologist involved in drilling, thats going to get real expensive, real fast, in terms relative to regular mechanical drilling thanks to the requirement for argon. Perhaps theres an economically efficient changeover point at depth as mechanical drilling becomes less capable due to increasingly plastic deformation.
MadnessASAP 5 hours ago [-]
You don't need a significant flow of argon, just enough to keep unwanted gasses out of the waveguide.
It's possible there exists a material that is transparent to mm waves, airtight, and can survive the conditions at the bottom of the hole. In such a case they could cap the waveguide and prevent any gas leakage.
I'm quite sure Quaise is well aware that Argon isn't cheap and are already exploring multiple avenues for reducing its usage.
It is interesting that they have to use Argon instead of the more typical Nitrogen or SF6. A waveguide with such a significant pressure differential is decidedly unusual and a unique challenger for what they are doing.
pfdietz 4 hours ago [-]
SF6 is a horrifically powerful greenhouse gas, so I doubt it could be used. Its GWP is somewhere around 23,000 on a 100 year timescale.
MadnessASAP 3 hours ago [-]
Oh yeah, there's no shortage of reasons not to use SF6. Even in conventional waveguides, as far as I know most designs these days prefer nitrogen or dried atmospheric air.
audunw 2 days ago [-]
There is definitely an economic changeover point, I’m sure I read they will use conventional drilling down to a certain depth, before switching to MMW
I doubt argon is the purge gas.
tekacs 5 hours ago [-]
Yeah, they say in their launch video for Project Obsidian (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmrna_r_b3A) that they'll drill the first 3km using conventional rotary drilling and mmWave beyond that.
I'd be curious if anyone (perhaps the parent) knows why – my assumption is that it's more expensive and/or not as reliable to drill higher up with mmWave, not least because the ground might be uneven materials, etc., and then it becomes something predictable and harder to rotary drill lower down, incl. as you would spend more time doing things like replacing bits low down and sending things up and down?
tomtom1337 3 days ago [-]
You mean the argon gas used as medium specifically? I assume the purge gas is something else, cheaper?
anakaine 3 days ago [-]
If the goal is to simply purge the content of the hole, compressed air is typically sufficient. That said, the wider the hole, and the deeper it is, the harder it is to lift material on air.
To be clear though, I'd love to have one of these rigs on my old project and compare rate of progression and hole quality. Particularly when establishing the hole in sedimentary gravels and clays. I imagine casing will still be required.
One thing that I'd be concerned about is the ability to collect samples if most of the material is being vaporised or melted. Similarly, the cooking of the side of the hole on the way down could make geophysical responses much more difficult to interpret. Sonic velocity would probably increase, televised would probably be harder to interpret, harder to spot hydrothermal infill in sedimentary cover, would it affect gamma tools (probably not)
Edit: also wondering how the hole holds up around aquifers. Does the super heating cause wall instability immediately above the non geothermal aquifers as superheated steam is created? How does this affect the hole stability if we are not casing?
Edit 2: if we are not casing, how does the hole hold up around aquifer sands, loose fill, fractured or brecciated mass?
Edit 3: Also! Do we ream open the top of the hole to down past the last aquifers before the geothermal horizon? If not, how are we stopping stopping aquifers interplay and interaquifer contamination?
fleetwood 2 days ago [-]
i think they plan to drill with a traditional rig until they get deep/hot enough to necessitate a switch to mm wave
tomtom1337 3 days ago [-]
Great response! I'm just a layman here (former material scientist) but it's fun to think about this stuff!
mzhaase 3 days ago [-]
Maybe you could hook up a mass spectrometer to the purge gas to get real time composition.
nerdsniper 16 hours ago [-]
perhaps, but usually things like "which fossil species are present" are also utilized to figure out what's going on near the drill bit, like if you're trying to reach oil deposits right along the edge of an old riverbed.
Some shale formations in Michigan, for example, sometimes requires drilling to a 4" thick target. You don't know the exact depth because the depth of that 4" thick layer can vary by many feet from an another spot 100m north/south.
I'm aware that if you search "thickness of Antrim shale" or "thickness of Collingswood shale", Google will happily tell you that it's 20-40 feet thick, but for modern drilling techniques, the economics of the well depend on hitting a much more narrow target than that, which can be delicately guided in by analyzing fossils that come up.
consensus1 5 hours ago [-]
[dead]
westurner 5 hours ago [-]
Why mmwave instead of ultrasonic? FWIU 28 kHz shreds the quartzite in granite?
hangonhn 3 hours ago [-]
Isn't the idea here to gasify the rock by essentially microwaving it? With ultrasound, wouldn't you still need to remove the leftover rocks?
saltcured 3 days ago [-]
Naively, I wonder how much the density of argon gas helps here, in terms of being able to recover and reuse the argon gas in a relatively closed-loop system.
Can someone explain how this works? A gyrotron is some kind of maser (like a laser but with microwaves). Are they vaporizing the rock?
tliltocatl 25 minutes ago [-]
Gyrotron isn't quite a maser, more akin to a free-electron (i.e. electron beam) RF source. AFAIR (might be wrong, but based on what I could find there: https://www.thinkgeoenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/mi...) they aren't literally vaporizing the rock, rather locally heating it til it crushes into particles that can be blown away.
eternityforest 3 days ago [-]
They made the laser drill from The Core IRL?
adrian_b 3 days ago [-]
Except that it is not a laser but a high power radio transmitter made with a vacuum tube (gyrotron).
For generating the highest possible power of radio waves, vacuum tubes remain the only solution.
This drilling method resembles more a microwave oven (which uses a magnetron), than a laser.
mikelitoris 5 hours ago [-]
Impressive, but how long did it take to drill 100 meters? I didn't see a mention of that.
DoctorOetker 5 hours ago [-]
They mentioned about 1 hour per meter at 1 MW.
jauntywundrkind 3 hours ago [-]
The video mentions that they did all the drilling so far at 100kW and are expecting to start doing 1 MW within the year.
I wonder what their transmission voltage is. They're talking about a 1km deep shaft. That feels like a lot of conductor to get to 1MW, unless you can send at 20kV or something high. Reciprocally though if you're not transmitting major force through a drillshaft, perhaps it still is a major net win for cost.
Figuring out heat management down there feels like it would likewise be pretty tricky! Again I wonder though how that would compare to the heat generated from drilling and how much management/circulation that requires.
tliltocatl 11 minutes ago [-]
Based on what I could find:
They generate the RF on the surface and transmit it down the borehole thru a waveguide, so it's only limited by arching in the waveguide. Since we only need power transfer and don't care about multimode propagation, the waveguide diameter isn't limited, and probably on the larger side to reduce copper losses. And the heat management is provided by blowing argon which also carries abalated rock particulate to the surface.
No need for an expensive containment dome, or expensive plumbing. If anything goes wrong, the nuclear fuel is already a mile underground. When the fuel is used up, they can leave it where it is since it’s below the water table. No need for expensive and hard to source highly enriched uranium.
The hard part is digging the wells, but that seems trivial compared to Quaise, who’s trying to dig 3-20km wells. The Deep Fission wells can just go anywhere (perhaps next to a disused former coal turbine?).
And even if you are stupid enough to actually do this, the fuel efficiency will be terrible. Your only negative feedback for fission is the Doppler effect and thermal expansion. So you will only be able to utilize a tiny percentage of the fissionable materials.
perfectly safe /s
What could possibly go wrong!?!?
"For the application in EGS drilling, this device uses a metallic waveguide to carry the millimeter wave (MMW) beam to a standoff distance from the crystalline rock. Argon gas is used as the waveguide fill medium due to its ability to stay transparent to MMW’s at such deep depths and thus higher pressures [12]. Purge gas is also used to pump out the excess material that has been transformed into smaller particles (Figure 2.4). "
As a former geologist involved in drilling, thats going to get real expensive, real fast, in terms relative to regular mechanical drilling thanks to the requirement for argon. Perhaps theres an economically efficient changeover point at depth as mechanical drilling becomes less capable due to increasingly plastic deformation.
It's possible there exists a material that is transparent to mm waves, airtight, and can survive the conditions at the bottom of the hole. In such a case they could cap the waveguide and prevent any gas leakage.
I'm quite sure Quaise is well aware that Argon isn't cheap and are already exploring multiple avenues for reducing its usage.
It is interesting that they have to use Argon instead of the more typical Nitrogen or SF6. A waveguide with such a significant pressure differential is decidedly unusual and a unique challenger for what they are doing.
I doubt argon is the purge gas.
I'd be curious if anyone (perhaps the parent) knows why – my assumption is that it's more expensive and/or not as reliable to drill higher up with mmWave, not least because the ground might be uneven materials, etc., and then it becomes something predictable and harder to rotary drill lower down, incl. as you would spend more time doing things like replacing bits low down and sending things up and down?
To be clear though, I'd love to have one of these rigs on my old project and compare rate of progression and hole quality. Particularly when establishing the hole in sedimentary gravels and clays. I imagine casing will still be required.
One thing that I'd be concerned about is the ability to collect samples if most of the material is being vaporised or melted. Similarly, the cooking of the side of the hole on the way down could make geophysical responses much more difficult to interpret. Sonic velocity would probably increase, televised would probably be harder to interpret, harder to spot hydrothermal infill in sedimentary cover, would it affect gamma tools (probably not)
Edit: also wondering how the hole holds up around aquifers. Does the super heating cause wall instability immediately above the non geothermal aquifers as superheated steam is created? How does this affect the hole stability if we are not casing?
Edit 2: if we are not casing, how does the hole hold up around aquifer sands, loose fill, fractured or brecciated mass?
Edit 3: Also! Do we ream open the top of the hole to down past the last aquifers before the geothermal horizon? If not, how are we stopping stopping aquifers interplay and interaquifer contamination?
Some shale formations in Michigan, for example, sometimes requires drilling to a 4" thick target. You don't know the exact depth because the depth of that 4" thick layer can vary by many feet from an another spot 100m north/south.
I'm aware that if you search "thickness of Antrim shale" or "thickness of Collingswood shale", Google will happily tell you that it's 20-40 feet thick, but for modern drilling techniques, the economics of the well depend on hitting a much more narrow target than that, which can be delicately guided in by analyzing fossils that come up.
Nice article on an earlier demo: https://newatlas.com/energy/quaise-energy-millimeter-wave-dr... ; linked from this (nice but lots lots of ads): https://newatlas.com/energy/quaise-energy-millimeter-wave-dr... .
Company https://www.quaise.com/ on YT https://www.youtube.com/@quaise
MS thesis (2024; browsable) on the vitrified wall, for that and its intro: https://www.proquest.com/openview/624989df3cdd8055a6cee9affc...
Search for papers "Millimeter Wave Drilling for Deep Geothermal Energy Production" https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C33&q=Mil...
Very interesting application of radio waves.
For generating the highest possible power of radio waves, vacuum tubes remain the only solution.
This drilling method resembles more a microwave oven (which uses a magnetron), than a laser.
I wonder what their transmission voltage is. They're talking about a 1km deep shaft. That feels like a lot of conductor to get to 1MW, unless you can send at 20kV or something high. Reciprocally though if you're not transmitting major force through a drillshaft, perhaps it still is a major net win for cost.
Figuring out heat management down there feels like it would likewise be pretty tricky! Again I wonder though how that would compare to the heat generated from drilling and how much management/circulation that requires.
They generate the RF on the surface and transmit it down the borehole thru a waveguide, so it's only limited by arching in the waveguide. Since we only need power transfer and don't care about multimode propagation, the waveguide diameter isn't limited, and probably on the larger side to reduce copper losses. And the heat management is provided by blowing argon which also carries abalated rock particulate to the surface.
See the schematics here: the schematic here: https://www.thinkgeoenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/mi...